Is there someone in your life who seems to constantly drain your energy, leaving you feeling confused, full of self-doubt, or wondering what you need to do to make them happy? How do you know if it's just a rough patch or if there are specific signs that point to something more sinister? Narcissistic abuse is often hidden in plain sight. I've invited Phoenix Gould, a narcissistic abuse survivor and coach, to join me to discuss the untold truth that no one tells you about the world of narcissistic relationships, the red flags that are often missed, and the secret struggle that every survivor faces.
Meadow: Can you share a bit about your backstory?
Phoenix: Well, I grew up with a narcissistic mom. I didn't really find out until my 40s. You know, I knew there was something wrong and really thought for a long time that my mother had borderline personality disorder, and treated her as such, which is with a lot of compassion, trying to help her, trying to understand her. But it was only when I found out that she had narcissistic personality disorder that things really started to shift for me.
Meadow: Did you have more than one narcissist in your life?
Phoenix: No, she wasn't the only one. I had one or two boyfriends that were narcissists. I think the biggest impact for me personally was that I was so socially awkward because I had learned to be a chameleon with my mom, you know, to be who she needed me to be to receive that little bit of love. And so, I ended up in relationships where I was hoping for breadcrumbs, and where breadcrumbs were fine with the other ones. I couldn't really be myself, and that was really painful. I was just always hoping and working really hard to receive that little bit of love.
Meadow: Yeah, I completely agree. I spent most of my life in that same space of starving and just wanting those breadcrumbs and being so desperate for it, and completely willing to shape-shift to make myself more tolerable.
Now that you have a better understanding of what narcissism is, what's the first warning sign that you notice when it comes to spotting a narcissist?
Phoenix: Typically, first, I notice a really strong focus on me, you know, which is the flattering part to start with, where I still kind of fall into the trap a little bit of feeling flattered. It becomes like it's too much. As that strong focus on me checking me out, that always staring at me, trying to find out who I am, what I like, what I don't like so that I could then be manipulated further. When I receive that kind of interest, you know, I feel like a little puppy dog wagging with my tail, like kind of like, 'Oh, this feels good. More please.' That's something I noticed inside of me. That's the first thing. That's where I fall into the trap for just a little bit. And then, though, there is that really uncomfortable feeling of being stared at by a predator. I can recognize it now, but that would still be there, but I would discard it because getting that attention was so much more important than the warning signals when I was still starving for attention. And I really needed that outside reinforcement.
Now that that's not there so much anymore, I really feel almost like a tension through my whole body, and it's like something's wrong. I can't put my finger on it, what it is, something's wrong. And then I notice that stare, even when I'm looking away, that snake stare or that predator stare that I recognize. That warning signal just kind of gets pushed away because, you know, when you've been thirsty for however many years and you haven't had any drop of water, and here comes someone with a big bathtub full of water, but there are snakes around, you don't see them, you just need the water right now.
Meadow:Yes, and that's where my biggest challenge was when I started healing because I didn't even know what to look for or what to expect. I didn't have a baseline understanding of love at all. So when you're thirsty all the time, or hungry all the time, and you don't really know what nutrition is, or what water is, or what love is, you just kind of cling onto anything.
I'm curious if you have a particular turning point or a pivotal moment where things started to make sense for you.
Phoenix: Well, I think I probably had two pivotal moments in my life. One was when I was 23 and my life literally fell apart because I recognized for the first time that I really couldn't be with other people, or that I couldn't be me with other people, because I was so focused on pleasing them that I turned into a chameleon, and it became so strong that need that I literally froze and sometimes didn't know what to say. That was the pivotal moment where I realized that something was really wrong with me. I was not like other people. I could see them chat and talk and be themselves and be spontaneous, and I couldn't. It still had to do with my mother, but it was more about myself getting to know who I am, getting to know what I loved and liked, and turning the focus away from trying to please others. Getting to know myself and giving myself that love and empathy that I was searching for on the outside.
And that second turning point came about 7 or 8 years ago now when I still believed my mother was struggling with borderline personality disorder, and a friend of mine went through the discovery that her husband was a narcissist and sent me some information and said, 'You know, you should look into this.' But when I started reading about narcissism, it just clicked. It was like, 'Oh my God, that's what it is.'
Meadow: Yes, I had a similar journey of trying to figure out if my mom was a borderline or was a narcissist or both. And then it took several years before I started to understand, finally, the covert narcissism piece, and that's for me where things started to click. Like, 'Oh, that's what it was.'
For you, what do you find unique about narcissistic abuse or survivors of narcissistic abuse compared to survivors of other types of abuse?
Phoenix: I think that what's unique about narcissistic abuse is, whereas with other personality disorders, there is still that human being that is still seems like a human, with a narcissist, it seems more like we're dealing with an alien who working by very different rules and has a very different way of living. And so there is that constant wanting to experience that human connection that we are constantly trying to achieve, but nothing's coming back. And I think that is very draining because once we know what a narcissist wants is emotional reactions, then we can kind of look back on the experience and realize that we were constantly in a tumultuous experience of going through emotion after emotion after emotion: different ones, love feeling, rejection feeling, anger feeling, confusion feeling, shame. It is so overwhelming, the brain just stops working normally, right? We're constantly trying to regulate ourselves in a place where that's hardly possible, because as soon as we're regulated, a narcissist will swoop in and create a situation where we become unregulated again. So it's highly stressful. We can't really make decisions anymore because we are so overwhelmed with the emotions that there is no space to think clearly. And I think that makes it very hard to recognize how we're feeling, where we are, and what the way out would be, you know? That's why I think a lot of people get stuck in a relationship for so long.
As in the aftermath of having lived with a narcissist, there is that incredible self-doubt. I think that's very particular too, and that is the hard part to heal afterwards, right? We've become so fragile. I feel like living with a narcissist destroys that inner core, that inner confidence, and if we grew up with a narcissist, that inner core was never even possible to grow, so there's a lack of that strong center, and we're in constant self-doubt, right? Even if we perceive something that is very real, we will start to question ourselves, 'Maybe it's me. Maybe I'm so sensitive. Maybe that's not really what happened. Why is it affecting me like that?' There is that strong insecurity where we are always finding the blame in ourselves, and that is something, something that is a big challenge to heal and find that inner stability again.
Meadow: Yeah, I agree. The self-blame and that lack of self-trust and the toll it takes on your self-worth is just unbelievable. The thing that I see across the board with my clients is that they're always leaning toward blaming themselves and thinking that they are the one with the problem. And to me, I think that's the worst side effect of this type of abuse because half the time, people don't even know that they were abused in the first place. And in my experience, narcissistic abuse is kind of a silent killer, like secondhand smoke. You might not even know that it's happening, and you don't even know if it's your fault, and you don't know why you're upset.
So, what do you think is the most important or difficult aspect of surviving narcissistic abuse that most people don't talk about? If there was a secret or a hidden truth, what do you wish people knew?
Phoenix: What I find is not really talked about enough is that someone who has not experienced narcissism on a personal level will never ever be able to understand someone who's gone through narcissistic abuse. There is that belief in the population that even narcissists are human in some way, and of course they are, but there is such a lack of normal human functioning and normal human responses that is unfathomable, and someone who has not dealt with a narcissist in person cannot possibly understand the impact a victim has felt in their life, how determined we have to be on that healing path, how much work it is. I wish that was more understood.
Studying the signs of narcissistic abuse is crucial for everyone, but what's even more important is to learn to spot the narcissist before they do any damage. The most difficult narcissist to spot is the covert narcissist, but if you know what to look for in everyday conversation, you can learn to spot them within seconds. So, click to learn the—5 Clues to Spot a Covert Narcissist in Conversation to make sure you're always one step ahead.